Wednesday, September 12, 2007

Willful Misrepresentation


This entry might also have been titled "Lying."

Todd uses the ten commandments to show the "lost" that they have sinned against a holy and righteous god, will stand in judgment before him after they die and must repent and receive the forgiveness offered through Jesus Christ's shed blood on the cross of Calvary (let me know if I've misrepresented this; I think I've expressed it fairly accurately).

If Todd uses the commandments to show the unsaved their transgressions, why does he knowingly and repeatedly continue to break the ninth commandment by lying to his listening audience?

When Todd is asked of all the historical atrocities committed in the name of god by the pious, he indefinitely shifts the focus away from the reformation or the crusades and towards the Holocaust and other such contemporary examples of cruelty. He claims that the reformation and crusades weren't fought by True Christians™, but by heretics and hypocrites. Of course, if a freethinker were to use that sort of caveat against Friel, he would of course decry it as a foul.

Much to the chagrin of the WOTM staff, atheists do not feel it necessary to defend Adolph Hitler as an atheist because, in fact, he was not; Hitler was a Catholic mystic. Just take a quick glance at the photo embedded in this entry and you will notice that it is Nazi Germany-era military regalia. Now, for those of my non German-speaking readers, the script emblazoned across the top of this belt buckle reads "God With Us."

Todd Friel knows this historical fact and continues to disregard it for the spiritual benefit of his listeners. Shouldn't someone call him up and remind him what his god says about lying?

10 comments:

Anonymous said...

Nice leap of logic. Hitler has Got Mit Uns on his belt...therefore he is a Christian.

A+B=C

therefore c must be 23

boxershorts said...

Anonymous,

Please excuse my complete lack of surprise at your failure to understand the point of Former Follier's argument. The point is not that Hitler was a Christian. This is certainly a matter of controversy; that Hitler claimed to be Catholic and spoke highly of Catholicism and Christianity in public is a matter of documented, historical fact. There are reports, however, that he spoke critically of Christianity in private. But that's neither here nor there in the context of Mr. Follier's post. The presence of the phrase "God with us" on Nazi paraphenilia is proof positive that the National Socialism of mid=20th century Germany was not an atheist movement.

Which brings us to the point of Mr. Follier's argument: Hitler was not an atheist, as Mr. Friel frequently and dishonestly claims.

AnathemaUnbound said...

I'm going to have to disagree with boxershorts. This is what Wikipedia has to say on the subject...

"Gott mit uns (meaning God With Us) was the motto of the royal house of Prussia, and part of the military emblem of Prussia and later Germany.

During the Second World War, Army soldiers wore this slogan on their belt buckles, as opposed to members of the Waffen SS, who wore the motto Meine Ehre hei├čt Treue (my honor is loyalty).

Used as war cry in the Thirty Years' War. One of three official mottoes by Gustavus Adolphus (Gustav II Adolf in Swedish). This of course predates any use by a Prussian King, Elector or German Emperor, but the expression is probably used by others as well. Note the Battle cry reference to Nobiscum Deus (Latin, "God with us"), used by Romans and East-Romans as a battle cry.

Russian mixed martial arts fighter Aleksander Emelianenko has this sentence tattooed on his back.

The phrase is also used by A.E. Hotchner in his 1955 novel Papa Hemingway to describe the inscription on the belt buckle Ernest Hemingway is wearing during their first meeting in the La Florida bar in Havana in 1948. (Hotchner, Papa Hemingway, Random House, New York, 1995, pg 6)"


As you can see, this phrase is a "war cry" used to denounce the enemy and strike fear into them. It is NOT a reference to belief in a deity, for if it were, the Romans would have written "Zeus with us" or something thereof, for they were a polytheistic society.

AnathemaUnbound said...

Also just another reference to see that this belt buckle of Ernest Hemingway was NOT religious, go to this website:

http://tksanders.com/gottmittunsgrey.htm

It thoroughly explains that the buckle was used LONG before Hitler took over and instead of abolishing the phrase "Gott mitt uns," he took out the religious crest and inserted a Nazi symbol for he was AGAINST religion.

BoxerShorts said...

anathemaunbound,

You're continuing to ignore the documented historical fact that Hitler identified himself as Catholic and spoke highly of Christianity on numerous occasions. Nothing he ever wrote or said on the record was indicative of atheism, and reports of Hitler speaking critically of Christianity are anecdotal.

We can argue all day about whether or not he was a true Christian, or even thought of himself as such in private. Was he really Catholic? I certainly don't claim to know, and I really don't much even care. That's not the point. The point is, there is no credible indication that Hitler was an atheist, and it is therefore dishonest for Mr. Friel to to say, as he often does, that Hitler was an atheist, the implication being that atheists are therefore bad.

Ideally, all of us on both sides of this debate should just agree once and for all to stop trying to stick each other with Hitler. Hell, we'll except Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao Tse Tung. We're not proud of them, but we'll acknowledge that they were atheists (I would, however, argue that discussing the actions of those dictators does not constitute a valid criticism of atheism, but that's a discussion for another time).

Hitler, however was not one of us.

And I continue to maintain that, regardless of its cultural and/or historical significance, an atheistic movement would not have the phrase "Gott mit uns" from official paraphernalia. They may not have originated it, but the fact that they didn't get rid of it altogether is telling.

The Nazis may not have been Christians, but they definitely weren't atheists, and I will continue to throw that LIE back into the face of any Christian who perpetuates it.

AnathemaUnbound said...

Sure thing boxer. I would love to settle this once and for all but alas the debate will continue for awhile and in my opinion, doesn't help us edify our (human) wisdom or learn to understand differing worldviews.

I apologize PROFUSELY if I misinterpretted this past blog. With my response, I wanted to show why "God with us" was left on this seal, through historical evidence.

If you or Follier could give me a link that talks about Hitler being a Catholic mystic, I will gladly research it to see if it is correct. If so, I will willingly admit Todd was wrong in this instance.

Former Follier said...

Anathema Unbound:

Let me direct you here (http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm); please return with a full report.

Ben D said...

Surely if Hitler was this die-hard atheist he's being made out to be, he'd have just got rid of all references to god, instead of leaving them all over Nazi paraphernalia?

justin said...

"When Todd is asked of all the historical atrocities committed in the name of god by the pious, he indefinitely shifts the focus away from the reformation or the crusades and towards the Holocaust and other such contemporary examples of cruelty. He claims that the reformation and crusades weren't fought by True Christians™, but by heretics and hypocrites."

The premise is faulty saying that look at all the bad things Christians did over time, i.e. crusades holocaust etc, if they aren't Christians. There is no argument if the presupposition is false.

ex.
The sky is purple.
Barney is purple.
The sky looks like Barney.

It's a faulty premise, the sky isn't purple. So trying to address the conclusion is pointless.

There is a difference when someone says they are a Christian just because that's the particular culture they have been raised in and when someone has a personal relationship with God because they repented and put there trust in the saving work of Jesus Christ and His death on the cross as a propituation on the cross for there breaking of God's law.

Just because you walk into a McDonalds doesn't make you a hamburger anymore than walking into a Church on a Sunday, putting a cross around your neck or calling yourself a Christian makes you one.

Former Follier said...

Justin,

I'm afraid you missed the premise. I mentioned the crusades and the reformation in passing; I did not dwell on them but mentioned them to make my premise. The fact that Todd Friel tells his listeners Hitler was an atheist is a lie. I have demonstrated why it is a lie.

Now, if I were to follow your logic I could assume that you admit Mr. Friel to being wrong when associating Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, etc. with their lack of god-belief. He is essentially telling his listeners that "their atheism made them do it."